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SUNSHINE GIRL-685508

Articles Posted: 5  Links Seeded: 0
Member Since: 11/2008  Last Seen: 2/17/2012

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The Lies Believers Tell

Fri Mar 4, 2011 4:18 PM EST
religion, gay, christians, hypocrisy, fundamentalism
By sunshine girl-685508
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The vast majority of Christians or Muslims are not mean-spirited, deliberately obtuse and deceptive about what they say to the public versus what really goes on within their ranks. I know because I was within an evangelical bible-based Christian sect for nineteen years of my life, a Youth Leader in fact. I know because having spent a portion of my childhood in the religiously diverse Caribbean island of Trinidad and Tobago, I had friends from all faiths, Hindu, Muslim and a wide variety of Christian denominations from Roman Catholic to Pentecostal to Jehovah’s Witness. All of us were genuinely decent people, eager to present the best possible picture of our religion for truly genuine reasons.

Sixteen years ago if you would have asked me if I hated gays and lesbians I would have said to you with all heartfelt sincerity, “Of course not! I love gay people. Love the sinner and hate their sin!”

Of course this was a fallacious statement but please understand, it was not a deliberate lie or even a malicious one. No more deliberate or malicious than when the average Muslim tells you, “Islam is a religion of peace,” and “Of course we are tolerant of different beliefs,” while at the same time reading violently intolerant Quaranic verses and being reinforced with the opposite by certain imams.

How can such a dichotomy exist within the human heart? I’ll tell you how.

You see, at the time, I truly believed what I said made logical and spiritual sense.

Today I can admit that deep down I felt my sense of fair play challenged when I was expected to applaud an undue amount of vitriolic anti-gay sermons in church, especially when I saw the double-standard of more dire issues left unaddressed and certain religious leaders guilty of all kinds of inappropriate behavior that by scriptural standards was far more severe. Yes I had an uneasy conscience when I was expected to participate in perpetuating information about gays and lesbians I knew deep down was not really true especially after meeting gays and lesbians in person. Yes I felt the tug on my heartstrings when I saw the pain it caused them to be on the receiving end of retributive actions against them by my fellow Christians. I knew somewhere deep down in my heart of hearts that it was not truly “Christian” to deliberately pursue actions that would bring suffering to another even if you considered them sinful or an enemy.

However the thing about being a “believer” from an early age is that you are taught that these feelings are a kind of weakness and you need to suck it up and be strong in the Lord. It gets to the point where the unpleasant conflict you feel inside becomes so distressingly frustrating you begin to believe it is a tool of Satan instead of a crack in your comfort zone that lets some light of truth in. With practice it becomes second nature cover these cracks and get back to your comfortable assurances. If you have ever wondered how people can participate with such hard-heartedness in stonings and hangings. It’s the same reason my father turned away a desperate Hindu family in need from renting one of our properties without a second thought because he did not want them practicing their pagan idolatry in any residence he owned. The look on that little Indian boy’s face as they were turned away still haunts me to this day. A look of, “What is wrong with me and my parents?” as his innocence shattered.

But when you truly have faith you are the “saved ones” and everyone else is part of Satan’s world, what do you expect? For those who believe that the bible is the inerrant word of God and that the passages used to condemn homosexuality are being accurately interpreted and aptly applied by their Pastor, what other course is there? I am sure a Muslim follower of Sharia Law will say the same about why they must harden their heart pelt that first stone to batter the pleading face of a woman buried up to her shoulders in sand.

I truly believed the story of attempted xenophobic gang rape in Sodom in Genesis 19 related to homosexuals, even those in committed relationships. I never questioned how come it was perfectly fine to cherry pick from the Mosaic Laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy which abominations were more relevant than others for modern day people. I believed that the references to male temple prostitutes in the book of Kings, clearly shows God does not like homosexuals. I believed the letters of the apostle Paul were direct, God-given rules for Christians to follow to the letter just like a new kind of Mosaic Law. Even his directives about the role of women (yes my church was THAT strict and women were not allowed to have any leadership roles). When my Pastor said that Romans 1:26-27 referred to homosexuals both male and female being against the laws of nature, I trusted what he said was right. It truly seemed to be what the scripture was saying when you read just those verses without understanding of ancient Greek language and the context of the culture of the Romans and their orgy-filled pagan rites. In fact, my total lack of knowledge of ancient Greek words meant all of Paul’s references to catamites and pederasts were seen as references to all the present day homosexual people I knew.

Even if things did not always add up logically, I had faith and I was told that faith was more important than knowledge. Even if things seemed unfair and inhumane at times, I had faith and I was taught how to harden my heart and somehow be able to sleep at night even with the belief that some of the best school mates I had were going to hell for being non-Christians and not interested in converting when I preached fervently to them. And I was one hell of a holy rolling, scripture quoting spitfire of a pre-teen and teenager. I now look back with embarrassment and sincere apology to those poor girls who suffered one of my sermons.

Remember those cracks? Well a funny thing happened to widen them. On the one hand I had this extremely comforting and reassuring belief and on the other, growing academic opportunities and with it, exposure to life-altering knowledge and also a family life disintigrating all around me. The cracks began to get harder to gloss over. During family bible study of the flood in Genesis and my questions about the logistics of such a thing in light of the geography and biology I was learning in school, I saw my father, an educated man, deliberately engage in fallacy and then emotional blackmail and thinly veiled threats when he could not answer my questions. I could tell it was not truth that was truly important to him. He was far more worried I was losing my faith and by extension his ability to control my behavior. It was the lie in his eyes when I asked him if he truly believed all of this that convinced me that no amount of faith can ever make a thing that is not true, true.

How does one discover truth? Certainly not through believing in something because of family/cultural tradition or a highly emotional experience or because it feels so comforting or because you feel guilty, or because you are scared or because you want to belong or because you want some reward or fear some punishment. I learned the hard way how deep and intoxicating the sense of comfort was to just stay where I was. I mean try grappling with your fears without it…not easy. There is deep solidarity with your brothers and sisters and safety in the predictability of the routine, ready-made doctrine and rules and a community where you always know where you stand and who you can count on. Try learning how to select friends and invest your trust based on something more than, “Are you Christian?”

There is a self-esteem boosting you get from being just that bit closer to the Kingdom of God than the unbelievers and I admit, the chance to gloat on those who make you feel those disquieting cracks I mentioned earlier. Try dealing with your shortcomings and seeing those who are supposed to be unsaved enjoying more success and happy home life without this ego-booster. Not easy! Especially when your parents are going through a divorce and the only warm loving home you find sanctuary in is that of your lapsed Roman Catholic (hell-bound pagan papist) school friend whose family is not only in tact but far more healthy than yours. How can that be? You wonder.

So I can understand completely if some people simply “Do not WANT to know” because of fear of losing all of this and the most important part of the equation- that sense of inner peace from the personal relationship with the Divine Creator. For many this and the dogma/church are mutually exclusive.

Any knowledge that could challenge this will end everything peaceful and purposeful in their lives. I know people who without the structure of a legalistic faith-based belief, rigid rules and ever-so-nosy religious community will actually fall into directionless, destructive behavior. They are spiritual babes who need that kind of milk- the recovering addicts, abandoned mothers, insecure men, regret-ridden and grieving among us. Unfortunately I fear there are religious leaders who are cynics at heart out for easy power positions and financial gain that exploit such people and love is an enemy to their objectives.

The love I speak of is true Agape love or what the older Eastern faiths can call universal/unconditional Divine love. Universal/unconditional love trumps EVERYTHING, church, dogma and scripture for no book written by man about God could ever trump God. Those who believe their holy book and religious bureaucracy has captured God so perfectly, absolutely and infinitely and can now be used as a means to read God’s mind and predict God’s actions are truly underestimating the definition of Almighty/Alpha and Omega.

Today when I say, “I love my gay and lesbian relatives, friends and neighbors”, I have the conviction of knowledge of Agape love behind that statement. It is the knowledge that you cannot love someone you do not truly see truthfully. One day I asked myself if I was seeing gays and lesbians truly or only seeing what comforted my faith and prejudices. Investigation revealed the latter to be true in my case and I daresay in the case of many of the Christians I knew and still meet today. When I see the misused, hypocritically-applied scriptural references and the stereotypical falsehoods they spread about homosexuals while professing their so-called love, I know their love is a lie because it goes against the grain of truth.

If you do not even have the decency to research the truth about homosexuality, then you do not love homosexuals, sorry. I feel the same about people who tell me they love black people and then spout off all kinds of insulting stereotypes that shows deliberate or negligent ignorance. The same goes for those who use scripture to brush off social injustice or oppose any attempt to ensure society practices the same directive given by Christ in Matt 7:12, “Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them."

How do Christians who deliberately seek retributive action against gays and lesbians square with Luke 6:27, “Love you enemies; do good to those who hate you.” How do they feel about Christ saying that he will judge people professing their allegiance to him based on whether they clothed, fed, sheltered the least of his brothers or what about reading a little further in Romans and seeing the same Paul who you insist on following legalistically say:

"If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink." Romans 12;20 How does that factor in pressuring companies against giving their gay and lesbian employees equal health and pension so they can take care of their families?

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." Romans 14:19- Is that what some Christians are doing by opposing anti-bullying legislation?

"Overcome evil with good." Romans 12:21 – Even if you believe gays and lesbians to be absolutely EVIL, you are still obligated (if you choose to follow Paul’s letters like THE LAW) to only do good to them.

All of these are the directives least followed by the Religious Right.

It is not that the Christian has to agree with gay marriage or even gay adoption. There were many things Paul did not personally agree with. For instance he was a firm believer in celibacy as the FIRST CHOICE for ALL Christians. He saw marriage as a “second best” outlet only for those too weak to control their lust 1 Cor 7: 8-9. But scattered throughout Paul’s epistles are very clear disclaimers, a possible reason why Peter’s commentary on Paul’s epistles is, “Paul's epistles are hard to understand. And that those who try to understand them, as with the other scriptures, do so "unto their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:16.

After stating his opinions on marriage, Paul also has a disclaimer in 1 Timothy 4:1-6. He warned Christians to avoid falling prey to certain leaders who try to dictate food, drink, who should and should not marry. He continually warns about taking his opinions too literally, advises to be fully persuaded on one’s own mind and not be children in your understanding nor use his words to judge and stumble others away from the faith. Isn’t it ironic that is exactly what we see going on in many churches today.

Do you think the gay issue is the first heated debate in Christianity? Back in the day, there was the belief only circumcised Jews could be Christians. There were Jewish Christians who believed on pain of death all MUST follow the old laws and would not worship, associate or even break bread with any uncircumcised “so-called” Christians. There were times it almost came to blows! Can you imagine the weight of scripture the Jewish Christians had in their corner? Not just the entire Old Testament but the trump card that Jesus was a Jew and therefore circumcised. The non-Jewish, uncircumcised Christians were like the gay Christians of today in a way. Unpopular, ridiculed, pressured to painfully alter something about themselves in order to fit in and with very little existing scripture to make a case for their inclusion. Yet make a strong case they eventually did using not legalism but the infinite nature of grace. Christianity from its very inception and its nature is a CONTINUOUS DEBATE. It is why we have women in leadership positions today. It is why we place human freedom over any scripture in the bible directing slaves submit to their masters with all fear and trembling. It is why we do not demand female victims of rape prove they screamed or risk stoning.

The inauthentic, hypocritical spiritual approach legalistically embraces doctrine derived from early accounts of man’s quest to understand himself and the Divine, instead of embracing the quest itself.

If you are truly honest and brave, then going by the book will never be your path. You keep your eyes on the spiritual path ahead of you not behind you! The purpose of ancient maps are to only glance at for a point of reference so you can gauge how much you have evolved from whence you came and deepened in your understanding of the first spiritual walkers' rudimentary steps. I guess you can say it is sort of like how Christ approached things when he had an ancient rule in one hand and humanity or even basic practicality (like when he and his disciples picked and ate some wheat on the Sabbath, a capital offence, to the chagrin of the Pharisees) in the other.

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  • Public Discussion (112)
OneNativeSon

Wow!

If you are truly honest and brave, then going by the book will neverbe your path. You keep your eyes on the spiritual path ahead of you not behind you! The purpose of ancient maps are to only glance at for a point of reference so you can gauge how much you have evolved from whence you came and deepened in your understanding of the first spiritual walkers' rudimentary steps.

your article as a muse...

I stepped from the path my parents cleared and so carefully laid before the happy unknowing child I once was long ago,

...And into the intermittent dappling sunshine of my own way - stepped into this wide open world of thought.

The wisdom I chose to follow:

Beware blindness, stare not too long, too long into neither sun nor snow. Think not today you know all you must nor trust that you know all today of all you could ever hope to grow into...

For no hallowed tome - no ancient book - nor learned mind can begin to explain the manifest wonder of all that God has wrought. As sure as the earth turns each moment time will ever find new ways for to you some new knowledge to be taught..

I chose some paving stones from my long winnowed youth and blazed a path. With steps of love and charity, handholds carved with deliberate care of understanding and trust... not for being told I must... but by using rightness as a guiding master of cause; as lead engineer of my personal laws and the engine of my life's momentum and it's thrust.

not great! I know... but this kind of slap-dash writing is only a few notches above tweeting anyways ;)

In any case...

We all have our awakenings and every awakening is as rife with potential as risk. Some awake into darkness while others open their eyes into bright warmth all around them.

You must've woken into the light...

Good to have some Sunshine around!

  • 13 votes
Reply#1 - Sun May 15, 2011 10:38 AM EDT
Soph0571

We could be cousins! Great thought provoking piece. Clipping to SuperVine. Brilliant:-)

  • 17 votes
Reply#2 - Sun May 15, 2011 1:22 PM EDT
MoCowgirl-1193719

Terrific read. I enjoyed it.

I was raised in organized religion....as an adult I attended churches of several different Christian brands....I was on a quest to find "God" and the "true" religion. I found hate, hypocrisy, manipulation, greed, narrow mindedness, out and out stupidity and intolerance for anyone who questioned anything about what the followers/leaders "believed" or supposedly "believed"....Yuck!

I gave up on all organized religion...but was still a "believer" for many more years....despite the fact that I largely suspected all organized religions were in place to control the masses and addressed mankind's fear of death.....and also made each individual feel "special and loved" by something....on a planet with several billion people and over 300,000 more people born each day --- well, it is kind of hard to stand out and be noticed and feel "special" much less loved. I had a mostly live and let live philosophy toward all "believers", but didn't not formalize our alliance by selecting a brand and attending services.....so I was fair game to be judged by all of them since I would not choose sides and I was a woman who refused to play by the rules of praying for my abusive/controlling husband(s) instead of divorcing them (I broke several other "women" rules that I found controlling and stupid also --- although I am not sure that all of them were in the Bible or Bible "inspired").

After the events of the last decade, I came to the decision that if there was a God, then that God would not be supportive of all of a nation that claimed to be made of people following His "son" who directed people to love one another not annihilate one another over oil, money and control, and it was becoming more difficult to discern the differences between "Christians", Talibans, Muslims, and terrorists --- since they all are seeking to be dictators and enslave everyone's mind, soul, and body with their brand of poison.

I am somewhere between agnostic and atheist - if a label must be put on it.

I support the rights of others to abuse themselves with their own brand of religion....but never, ever do they have a right to play dictator over others....that is when they become a terrorist and must be stopped from harming others who simply want to enjoy their own life in their own way.

It does not matter what the "message" is if the "actions" are controlling in any way. Freewill is supposedly given by "God".....so his followers need to quit imposing their will in any and all ways on anyone else - period.

If people want to see a movie at the theater, people will buy a ticket. If people want to hear a religious message, people will attend a church....and if people want to read about religion then people will check out a book.

And above all....if God managed to make the universe and everything in it without money..

....and Jesus managed to feed hundreds of people with a few fish and loaves of bread....

...then why, oh, why has God ever needed money to accomplish what He wants to accomplish? He doesn't....never has and never will. Man needs money....and uses it to control others instead of help them - time after time after time.

the link below gives "live" info on worldwide births and assorted facts.

http://www.worldometers.info/

  • 16 votes
#3 - Sun May 15, 2011 1:33 PM EDT
MsAubrey

@ MoCowgirl - Very well put.

I tell the 'believers' (or over believers if you will), that MY God likes me just fine the way I am. That's why I have freewill, but still choose to be a good person.

  • 9 votes
#3.1 - Tue May 17, 2011 2:37 PM EDT
js-445607

I was a big fan of Jesus an it was love at first sight as a 3 year old. The song with the words below had a strong impact and stuck with me the past 64 years. These words proved what I felt about everyone on the planet and still do.
"Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Red, brown, yellow
Black and white
They are precious in His sight.
Jesus loves the little children
Of the world."

So, imagine my disappointment when I attended church services where these words did not apply?

  • 14 votes
#3.2 - Tue May 17, 2011 3:14 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Yea - it's called "disillusionment" - nice poem, JS - glad you still feel the same about it.

  • 6 votes
#3.3 - Tue May 17, 2011 5:35 PM EDT
retiredcoastguard

So is this the Christan bashing topic ? I knew newsvine would have one i suppose now i get to hear how only atheist are perfect.

Why do liberals stereotype? Never mind so do i .

John Lennon was not shot to soon .

Archie Bunker was right about you meatheads !

  • 2 votes
#3.4 - Tue May 17, 2011 5:58 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Is this seed about atheists??? Seems to me more about Organised Religion per se....

Who is Archie Bunker? What is a "meathead"?

  • 5 votes
#3.5 - Tue May 17, 2011 6:07 PM EDT
retiredcoastguard

Who is Archie Bunker? What is a "meathead"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXyXKA7oEOc&feature=related

classic TV

  • 2 votes
#3.6 - Tue May 17, 2011 6:43 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Ok - thanks. Being British - not come across this before. Will watch the videos for the crack then...

  • 4 votes
#3.7 - Tue May 17, 2011 7:02 PM EDT
Hortus custodis

retiredcoastguard :

"So is this the Christan bashing topic ?"

It seems that you did not read the article! Try reading the article prior to posting comments, if nothing else it keeps posters from looking less than intelligent!

"I knew newsvine would have one i suppose now i get to hear how only atheist areperfect."

Where are posts that make the above assertion?

"Why do liberals stereotype? Never mind so do i ."

"John Lennon was not shot to soon ."

Aside from being mean spirited the above is irrelevant.

"Archie Bunker was right about you meatheads ! 3.4 - Tue May 17, 2011 5:58 PM EDT"

Now you have moved to ad hominems; obviously you have no real arguments!

  • 12 votes
#3.8 - Tue May 17, 2011 7:21 PM EDT
Grae

Teresa, The show with Archie Bunker was All in the Family and was based on the British sitcom Til Death Us Do Part.

  • 6 votes
#3.9 - Tue May 17, 2011 7:38 PM EDT
redphish

So is this the Christan bashing topic ?

Absolutely not.

Why do liberals stereotype

We are discussing an excellent article that sparked a surprisingly intelligent conversation. You might want to look around, there are conservatives and liberals involved.

  • 11 votes
#3.10 - Tue May 17, 2011 9:04 PM EDT
js-445607

retiredcoastguard it would be wise to read the article before assuming.

  • 11 votes
#3.11 - Tue May 17, 2011 9:38 PM EDT
MoCowgirl-1193719

js,

I was taught the same song in Sunday school....and I still sing it...as well as several others. Ray Stevens even used that song as the intro to "Everything is Beautiful".

Did you learn "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands"? I can't remember all of the correct lyrics so I just make them up as I sing. LOL!

I have Willie Nelson's religious album and a Hank Williams religious album (Tramp on the Street is another of my all time favorites) and still listen to them....as well as other assorted "old time" religious music.

  • 5 votes
#3.12 - Tue May 17, 2011 10:12 PM EDT
js-445607

MoCowgirl I do know all these songs and they really meant everything to me as a child. Religious music is often very beautiful. "I Can Only Imagine" is the most recent I've heard that is absolutely wonderful. Those songs of joy and the teachings of Jesus never fail to make me happy.

http://youtu.be/oDdfn0ke82w clay aikin singing I Can Only Imagine

  • 8 votes
#3.13 - Tue May 17, 2011 10:56 PM EDT
ERich-356044

js and MoCowgirl,

((((hugs to you both!!!))))

E

  • 4 votes
#3.14 - Tue May 17, 2011 11:44 PM EDT
js-445607

Big hug back Erich!

  • 5 votes
#3.15 - Wed May 18, 2011 12:18 AM EDT
MoCowgirl-1193719

((((ERich & js))))

  • 4 votes
#3.16 - Wed May 18, 2011 3:36 AM EDT
js-445607

ERich and MoCowgirl, have you noticed that Jesus is rarely the target for negative discussion? God might be questioned and those professing to be good Christians in name only are up for scrutiny but Jesus stands as an upright example of a righteous human. I find this delightful but also very telling that those spiritual leaders with pure hearts always win.

You are both dear friends and I treasure our relationship here on the vine. Thank you.

  • 6 votes
#3.17 - Wed May 18, 2011 12:43 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Grae - #3.9 - Thanks for that info - I used to watch "Till Death do us Part" years ago in UK - excellent comedy series. Looking forward to watching "Archie" then. Sorry - off topic everyone - slight deviation....

  • 3 votes
#3.18 - Wed May 18, 2011 4:37 PM EDT
Chirmly

Retired, well it could be because there are so many examples where the believers are intentionally lying. Stuff like the ridiculous Kitzmuller vs Dover where the 'believers lied about where they got the books, and lied about 'intelligent design' not being the same as creationism (see the new term cdesign proponentsists), or any of the hosts of other clear prevarications (no transitional fossils ever found, if the earth were a few miles closer to the sun then it would burn up, etc..).

Of course, then there's the whole priest molestation cover-up over the last century.

And, most tellingly, FOX News aka Faux News.

Or, how about that End of the World this Saturday?

  • 6 votes
#3.19 - Wed May 18, 2011 4:47 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Or, how about that End of the World this Saturday?

Best we all say our goodbyes then.... if we are all still around on Sunday??? ... and I mean IF in the loosest of terms... then we can give O.R. a run for its' money...

  • 4 votes
#3.20 - Fri May 20, 2011 3:43 PM EDT
js-445607

I was standing in the surf thinking about this phenomenon and felt a pang of sorrow for those buying into this end of the world propaganda. How will they react when it doesn't happen the way they believe it will happen? Will some feel deep shame and do harm to themselves? Will others think they weren't chosen? What about the disregard for the children they've put through hell with their beliefs? All these questions and more came up and I cannot imagine how it will play out.

I'm very guilty of making sport of this announcement as I feel it is ludicrous at best but others are banking on it and that is not funny.

  • 5 votes
#3.21 - Fri May 20, 2011 5:04 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

I suppose they will say they "averted" it because of all the kind deeds they committed, and stay true to their "Church" as fanatics in denial so do...

  • 4 votes
#3.22 - Fri May 20, 2011 5:10 PM EDT
js-445607

Let's hope it is as simple as that Teresa! Maybe they will say that heaven was full and they sent them back.

  • 5 votes
#3.23 - Fri May 20, 2011 5:22 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

LOL.....

  • 3 votes
#3.24 - Fri May 20, 2011 6:29 PM EDT
MoCowgirl-1193719

Maybe they will say that heaven was full and they sent them back.

There's a "waiting list" for Heaven? :o)

  • 3 votes
#3.25 - Fri May 20, 2011 7:51 PM EDT
js-445607

Jesus overbooked! Now there is a waiting list but the only way you can move up is if one leaves.

  • 3 votes
#3.26 - Fri May 20, 2011 7:55 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Oh good - that means there must be a waiting list to die then!! Can't be Judgement Day today then, or it will break the system, and cause mayhem and chaos with the paperwork....

  • 3 votes
#3.27 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:00 PM EDT
MoCowgirl-1193719

the only way you can move up is if one leaves.

Wow....now it is really starting to confuse me (as if I was not confused enough already about the "waiting list").

Is purgatory "overbooked" also....or just not an option if you don't believe in it or have never heard of it?

  • 3 votes
#3.28 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:02 PM EDT
js-445607

I have inside information and personal experience in knowing that Hell is full...they sent me back. Purgatory has been overflowing for centuries. It's still kind of fun but some people still have a low opinion of it. The fundamental religious are really against purgatory and try to make everyone afraid of it but their afraid to have fun as it confuses them is all. Hells bells see how easy it is to get a bad rep?

  • 5 votes
#3.29 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:08 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Probably some kind of queuing system on that one - form two lines - Deservers and Non-Deservers..... I expect they'll soon tell you where you qualify. Glad you got sent back, JS - for once be thankful you did'nt fit the spec.

  • 3 votes
#3.30 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:13 PM EDT
MoCowgirl-1193719

Hells bells see how easy it is to get a bad rep?

I know that I have never had a problem getting a bad rep in certain circles...but I did not realize it was such a widespread problem. LOL!

  • 3 votes
#3.31 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:15 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Yep - the queue for the Non-Deservers could be a long one...

  • 3 votes
#3.32 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:19 PM EDT
js-445607

I'm semi-serious here for a moment. Do these believers have any idea where they'll be going? I'm really confused about this part. What do they expect to find and what do they think they'll be doing? I hope it's not the old wings and harp thing cuz that's kind of old and worn out as an option.

  • 3 votes
#3.33 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:29 PM EDT
MoCowgirl-1193719

I don't know what they believe....I only know what I believe....and that is that we are all an energy source and part of the universe.....and as an energy source we are eternal....and we are part of everything in existence in every corner of this galaxy and beyond. (As I am writing this...I am parting ways with the tick that decided to attach itself just below my ear...just because the ticks and I exist in the same small area does not mean that we need to form a "bond". LOL!)

As an energy source....we may take many different forms....and the human one is just one of them.

I do not claim to know how this was all created or how it works....or if there is an all powerful being in "charge" of everything.

My motto is "live and let live" and "do no harm"....our lifespan is just as long as the blink of an eye in the overall scheme of things....and we should not squander our lives following false prophets/profiteers and worshiping idols (American or other).

  • 4 votes
#3.34 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:41 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

I have absolutely no idea, JS. Maybe they will man the Deservers and Non-Deservers cubicles and pass judgement over all.... and give out stacks and stacks of forms to fill in. I cannot imagine what these people really believe will happen - it is a mindset of the fanatic.. and the mindset of the vulnerable at the same time.

  • 3 votes
#3.35 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:42 PM EDT
js-445607

I believe we are one with the universe so these lost little lambies concern me. This morning I read about a mother and father completely sold on the idea and the children were not. The mother told one child he wasn't going to make the cut. Now who on earth would do that if they were sound of mind? I guess my problem with this seriously is I was raised by a mother that wished me dead half the time and repeatedly told me God was going to strike me dead. I remember as a six year old hiding behind the piano trying to stay out of God's view and her's of course. When I thought of this and what that mother said it made me wonder if all the believers were on the same page. It seems mighty cold hearted for someone thinking they are the chosen ones don't you think?

  • 4 votes
#3.36 - Fri May 20, 2011 8:57 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Yea - well, that's why it is so difficult to try and make any sense of what is going on here. There are truely some people who should never be parents - because they just don't know how to, and that is probably stemming from their own past which you would need to understand before you could get to grips as to the Why? of what happened to you. I would not dwell on it too much though - as you seem to have come through with a great sense of humour, and you got that from a good place somewhere in that bad place - somehow...

  • 5 votes
#3.37 - Fri May 20, 2011 9:07 PM EDT
js-445607

I have great faith in the resilience of children Teresa. Part of me knew my mom was not well put together and I loved her anyway. She certainly demonstrated the kind of person I was not going to be as an adult. I was fortunate to have a best friend with a very loving mother and she gave me a lot of affection so I was blessed.

I just hope all these believers have boarded their pets and signed off on the children they want to leave behind. I wish they'd advertised because I know a lot of people who would gladly step in for them and take over their job. OMG, is this how the government is generating jobs and cutting down on unemployment?

  • 5 votes
#3.38 - Fri May 20, 2011 9:14 PM EDT
MoCowgirl-1193719

. It seems mighty cold hearted for someone thinking they are the chosen ones don't you think?

Yes.

But......

I think that some people were indoctrinated at a young age.....and are controlled by the "fear" instilled in them as children. Only the the very lucky ones become "brave" enough to question and rebel about the "system" that they were indoctrinated into in a positive manner.

I truly feel sorry for these people who are still controlled by fear. And that fear is manifested in ugly ways when they become adults. Because they had no control as children...many become controlling adults...probably to feel some sense of safety and security.

I seek to understand underlying reasons for people being "unreasonable"....it does not mean that I excuse their actions or can be their "friend".....but it does motivate me to speak out against abuse wherever I find it and try to break the cycle.

I never felt the need to hide from God....but I had nightmares about my adopted father coming after me with a loaded shotgun to kill me. He never threatened to kill me (best that I can remember) but I was deathly afraid of him. He told me when I was 4 or 5 that he did not want me....but he had to take me in order to get my adopted mother to marry him. He definitely was not a churchgoing "Christian" for the 13 years that I lived there.....but from what I gather (from hometown sources) he is a "faithful" churchgoer these days. I can't say that it was organized or any other kind of religion that made the man a monster....some people are evidently born that way.

  • 3 votes
#3.39 - Fri May 20, 2011 9:16 PM EDT
js-445607

Due to my experience as a child I too look deeply into reasons for certain behaviors. I often wonder how some thrive and some do not and often the ones that thrive are the ones that took it the toughest. I was very young when I discovered how horrific and abusive some households were. From then on I sucked up the wrath because I felt I was one of the lucky ones. I wasn't being physically beaten only mentally and emotionally abused. I had friends at school in the children and adults that gave me support and encouragement so to me I was blessed. I never had a urge to close my mind to others and it has served me well.

The night after I hid from God it was the last time. I dreamed that Jesus sat by my bedside and explained that some people don't understand God at all. God is a good and loving father and he'd never hurt one of his children. That dream truly gave me hope and peace of mind.

  • 4 votes
#3.40 - Fri May 20, 2011 9:25 PM EDT
MoCowgirl-1193719

js....

I am truly glad that you had a support team that loved you. I had my adopted mother's parents who always treated me with love...and I was their grandchild as much as any other grandchild. In fact, they offered to raise me when their daughter re-married....but oh no she wasn't going to allow anyone to have access to me that truly cared...even my own blood related family. I truly believed she raised me out of spite because of my uncle's treatment of her while they were married. My mother had died...and I was dumped on her by my father when I was 8 months old....and she kept me and never looked back.

I am hoping that God did not send me a message....because if so I am probably in serious trouble.

At the age of 12....I dreamed that Satan was in my closet. I do not know "why" he was in my closet, but I woke up in a cold sweat....and finally checked the closet to make sure that it was a dream so I could go back to sleep.

In my 20s....I dreamed of being in Hell...and I can still remember the dream vividly. It is not the "Hell" of eternal fire and damnation. It is the Hell where there is no real color --everything is kind of a gray with "promises" of a tint of yellow, green or blue...but no matter how hard you look all you see is gray....and yet the feeling is that there is "something" more there.

Also...it is not blistering hot...it is uncomfortable dry heat. There is no sweat to relieve the heat. There is no breeze that makes the temperature change in the least. Yet...there is this yearning that the next breath will provide relief to lungs weary of breathing in and out the same old dry heat. There is a "memory" of better times....but no hope, no expectation that anything will ever change.

From that dream....The message I "received" was ---- Hell is the acceptance of a system that renders only abuse with no hope that there will be a better tomorrow.

I have fought for individual rights and freedoms ever since....for me and everyone else.

Due to my experience as a child I too look deeply into reasons for certain behaviors.

This is probably why there is an "understanding" between us on the Vine when we attempt to "reason" out why something happened the way it did with logic instead of emotion.

  • 5 votes
#3.41 - Fri May 20, 2011 9:46 PM EDT
TERESA OLEARY

Children that come through bad childhoods usually have found some other kind of caring authority figure, and will look at trying to understand the World through other caring individuals. The dream that you had of a Jesus - in the World of psychology, it would be explained as that part of you that was "saved", your unconscious then symbolisng that part of you as Jesus in your dream, and this was perhaps your way of saving your surviving self. I don't want to get all therapist on you - as this is not what you are asking for, so I will leave it at that, JS. It is a courageous act to post details of your private life on a public domain in this way anyway, and I hope other Viners will respect that bravery.

MoCowgirl, too - seemingly - understands something of where you are coming from having had experience of fear in childhood from someone who should have been supportive and caring - and has developed a surviving philosophy which does her credit. I can only tell you both that none of what happened to you was ever your faults, or anyone else out there that have had abusive childhoods.

  • 3 votes
#3.42 - Fri May 20, 2011 10:00 PM EDT
js-445607

I truly loved Jesus and Santa Clause because they were a symbol of divine love for all children not just the special ones. As an adult I hope that other children that are neglected, abused and feel disenfranchised have some comfort brought to them as it was me. For me due to the God threats it had to be Jesus as Jesus was the only one I knew for sure that would have the real scoop.

MoCowgirl we have connected well and perhaps our strong spirits kept us going until we could be advocates for individual rights and freedoms. I don't think we could have picked a better cause...well, there's animals but I'm sure we advocate for them also, I know I do.

  • 3 votes
#3.43 - Fri May 20, 2011 10:21 PM EDT
American for truth

This post Says "The Lies believers Tell" The first thing is if you are a believer you would and will understand the scriptures. Jesus said no man can know the Day nor HOUR, EVEN THE SON OF GOD DID NOT KNOW. So lets call this person as he is, a liar. Why do I say this. Well I am a believer and I have heard Him Harold Camping say this more then once. The Bible also says If you predict something and it does not come to pass then you are a False Prophet. He is just that False. We need to call it as it is. Now what will happen to those the followed him and quit their jobs, Will he support them? Will this become another scam? We need to quit airing Him and try to lay this to rest. We will see fallout over this from Religious Sect and Cults alike, But the end is not yet. My faith is in Jesus Christ and sure not in this man. I have seen and have been in places that call themselves churches that are not but a front to scam funds and destroy peoples lives.

You all have a good day and do Hope to you all will be in Church Tomorrow.

  • 1 vote
#3.44 - Sat May 21, 2011 11:18 PM EDT
js-445607

During the 70's a lot of this was going on with "gurus" and "prophets" sucker punching the gullible. I've continually found this abominable and mean-spirited. I certainly feel sorry for those that believed Camping had the scoop. When I saw a young man carrying one of the signs the other day I started to laugh then it changed to feeling sorrow for him.

  • 3 votes
#3.45 - Sat May 21, 2011 11:22 PM EDT
notsojingo

Happy Day After Armageddon!!!

I went to an expensive restaurant, ate a big meal, bought a round of drinks for everybody there, and excused myself to use the restroom and slid out the back door and hauled butt at 6:01 PM.

Just kidding! I wanted to check in and say hello to everyone, and wish you a beautiful tomorrow!

Peace

  • 5 votes
#3.46 - Sun May 22, 2011 12:32 AM EDT
Chirmly

American, well, if you want to follow the bible then it's got some problems.

Jesus said that he would return before the generation of his disciples had ended. That's pretty simple to verify. It failed. Sure, try to weasel out of it like Camping will do.

Of course that would make Jesus a false prophet, who should be ignored and killed.

But then there is where Jesus said that nobody knows, not even Jesus. But only god knows. So Jesus clearly cannot be god.

Of course, if Jesus said that he would return before the generation had passed that would mean that Jesus DID know.

See any problems yet?

  • 3 votes
#3.47 - Sun May 22, 2011 12:45 AM EDT
js-445607

If Jesus showed up would anyone here believe it?

  • 3 votes
#3.48 - Sun May 22, 2011 2:27 AM EDT
Chirmly

JS, absolutely. It would be easy for ANY actual god to prove themselves not to be simple charlatans like maybe a Criss Angel. Surely, any god would instantly know what would be sufficiently demonstrative to the people.

  • 3 votes
#3.49 - Sun May 22, 2011 3:17 AM EDT
Kyle-2710718

If Jesus showed up would anyone here believe it?

Sure... Jesus shows up to mow my lawn every other Tuesday. (Weather permitting)

  • 4 votes
#3.50 - Sun May 22, 2011 10:31 AM EDT
dakaiser11

Is yours the same one that got hit by a car?

  • 3 votes
#3.51 - Sun May 22, 2011 10:50 AM EDT
American for truth

Chirmly

American, well, if you want to follow the bible then it's got some problems.

Chirmly, good come back. However, What problems do you find, I find non. I can not convince any, for it takes the Spirit to draw the sinner to Jesus. So where are you in this?

Jesus said that he would return before the generation of his disciples had ended. That's pretty simple to verify. It failed. Sure, try to weasel out of it like Camping will do.

Chirmly, Must read that again. He did not say the generation of the Disciples. He said that When you see the budding of the Fig tree, Which is a type of Israel becoming a Nation in 1948, that is the generation that will see the coming of the Lord Jesus. Read that again.

Of course that would make Jesus a false prophet, who should be ignored and killed.

If you see that He (Jesus) is a false Prophet then when do you respond to something you do not trust? Jesus came to save this sin full world. He came that they might have life. He gave of himself that you can come to him and ask him to forgive you a sinner in need of a Savior. False, To you so be it. To me I have Have Peace through Him and I am secured in Him against that day coming and the one I am in. May die tomorrow, but still I will trust Him before I follow any man. Try again.

But then there is where Jesus said that nobody knows, not even Jesus. But only god knows. So Jesus clearly cannot be god.

Your proof to that is????

Of course, if Jesus said that he would return before the generation had passed that would mean that Jesus DID know.

Again a repeat Proof is found Where??????

See any problems yet?

No, Do you see any? I guess you do. Somewhere in your life you have followed this man called Jesus. You were taught and maybe, just maybe attend Sunday School. But somewhere in your life you decided to follow your own Minds thoughts. Thinking that you knew more then Mom, Dad, Friends and relatives. You made your ow decision and you became a grown up. Well I see on problem, You are standing in the way of your own salvation and finding God.

Have a wonderful day.

  • 1 vote
#3.52 - Sun May 22, 2011 12:47 PM EDT
notsojingo

Thinking that you knew more then Mom, Dad, Friends and relatives.

So listening to their knowledge leads us to find the salvation of Jesus? Who would have known Aunty Em was a Prophet!!

;-)

Peace

  • 3 votes
#3.53 - Sun May 22, 2011 4:24 PM EDT
Chirmly

American, AH, see. So the prophecy fails, and then it becomes non-literal. Ok, let us say it's based on 1948. Then ONE generation from then would then would be precisely .. oh, 30 years? That's 1978. done. Failed.

OR maybe it's 60 years, so that would be what? 2008 right? So -UH oh.. that would be a year! Which we obviously cannot know. Plus, it would already be passed.

Again, that would be a fail.

Israel, as a place named as such does rather even occur as early as 1200 BC. So much for the 1948 starting point. Of course, that's based on the Merneptah Stele which might be referring only to the tribes/peoples named as such.

Basically, you are giving god, at BEST 120 years from 1948 to send Jesus back. LOL. Sounds like Harold Camping now, don't you think?

Yes, I do know more than my parents. My parents believed what their parents did. Regardless of the fact that there was no proof. I have higher standards AND more objective morals. I don't think that the judeo-christian god even represents a force that should be either accepted as good, since there's no documentary evidence for such a claim. In fact the god of the bible is demonstrably evil. Sorry. Proof would be that he condoned slavery, killing innocent people, babies, raping women and so on.

Ok, you ask for proof? Really, you want proof from me, but would provide non in exchange? How about proof for the exodus, or the flood or the resurrection.

1st John, 2:18 (amongst the earliest Christians) said "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour" because he was the generation (not 1948) of Jesus, and understood Jesus to have meant HIS generation.

Surely, you don't think that you know better than John, who spoke directly WITH Jesus, right?

The fig-tree, while mentioned, had nothing to do with the country of Israel. The GENERATION word would have been figurative, and plants do not have generations, referred to as such ANYWHERE in the bible. Generation is clearly generation of humans.

In fact, it's the same greek word "genea" used repeatedly to mean generation of people in Luke, and Matt and Mark. And it's consistently used to mean ONLY contemporaries (ie 10-30 years).

If you have proof that it meant 1948 and the fig-tree was an actual part of the "generation" reference, then that would be novel.

Mark 13:32 said that "Now concerning that day or hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven nor the Son —except the Father. " That would mean that Jesus couldn't know, but that God did (or could) ... but also means that Jesus is not god.

  • 3 votes
#3.54 - Sun May 22, 2011 4:26 PM EDT
American for truth

American, AH, see. So the prophecy fails, and then it becomes non-literal.

Who said that it was non literal you?

Ok, let us say it's based on 1948. Then ONE generation from then would then would be precisely .. oh, 30 years? That's 1978. done. Failed.

Oh Here is guess you know what a generation is? I haven't however you do and now let us know the truth?

OR maybe it's 60 years, so that would be what? 2008 right? So -UH oh.. that would be a year! Which we obviously cannot know. Plus, it would already be passed.

Again, that would be a fail.

Nothing has fail except someone that thought they knew Gods day. See I will still believe and that day will come but the day and hour You do not know. Jesus said it will be as a thief in the night. Try again.

Basically, you are giving god, at BEST 120 years from 1948 to send Jesus back. LOL. Sounds like Harold Camping now, don't you think?

Sound Like you are saying the same as Camping. I said nothing of the like. You like to change someones response to say really what YOU are wanting to say. Try again.

1st John, 2:18 (amongst the earliest Christians) said "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour" because he was the generation (not 1948) of Jesus, and understood Jesus to have meant HIS generation.

Surely, you don't think that you know better than John, who spoke directly WITH Jesus, right?

Lets put this in perspective. If you are going to us Scripture from the Word of God then Us it right. "Little children, (The Believers) it is the last time and as ye have heard that anti-christ shall come, even (right then) now are there many anti-christ whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us but they were not of us; if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out, that they might be made manifest (made seen) that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:18-19. The last days here are not the last hour. Had that been the case you and I would not be doing this conversing.

No the Fig tree has always been figurative of the State Hood of Israel budding.

In fact, it's the same greek word "genea" used repeatedly to mean generation of people in Luke, and Matt and Mark. And it's consistently used to mean ONLY contemporaries (ie 10-30 years).

genea, ghen-eh-ah; from genos, a generation; by impl. an age (the period or the person) age, generation, nation, time. Where do you see the years 10-30 in this word. You need to stay in context and this you are way out. Sorry try again.

... but also means that Jesus is not god.

No Jesus is God manifested in the Flesh. This Jesus whom you have crucified and buried, and see ascending into the heavens will come in like manner. No.

    #3.55 - Sun May 22, 2011 10:32 PM EDT
    Chirmly

    Ah, the futurism-by-necessity. It's definitely metaphorical, or non-literal because it never said Israel's FUTURE founding. Israel isn't mentioned. And the sentence said THIS GENERATION. So, if you assert that they are referring to a future event (the founding of Israel in 1948) by the fig-tree, then you must admit that it's a non-literal reading.

    The people of the time (the ones that lived with Jesus) thought it meant something different, however. So their interpretation must be as valid as yours.

    But, by describing wider and wider castings of the interpretation, you realize that it's less of a prophecy. Because in about 5-50 years, it will have to be RE-CAST as either "the generation of those that might seek god" or "the generation of man"...

    An age, or generation never applies, in Greek to a plant, anywhere in the bible.

    Umm.. You say that Jesus is god manifested in the flesh. So, Jesus is god, right? But only god knows when the time is, but jesus does not.

    So, either Jesus is god or Jesus is not god. That's pretty simple.

    • 2 votes
    #3.56 - Sun May 22, 2011 11:36 PM EDT
    American for truth

    Sad day here. No I understand why Jesus does not know the day or hour. However He is God manifested in the flesh and we can not get away from that point.

    Your generation is not with scripture. As I mentioned in my response, "genea, ghen-eh-ah; from genos, a generation; by impl. an age (the period or the person) age, generation, nation, time. You are setting time here. I am saying that there was an Israel and that they are Gods people and they became a Notion in 1948. It not a matter for discussion as to how long a generation is, but a time period. Have a good day.

    And yes do read 2 Timothy 3:16, St. John 1:1-14, and John 14:6,9. Hebrews 10:1-9. and do get back with me. Thanks for the response.

      #3.57 - Mon May 23, 2011 12:29 PM EDT
      Reply
      Al-316

      Sunshine Girl, very nice article. You have obviously risen above the hoards that follow without independently reaching a conclusion.

      You have asked why. I did the same thing for almost the same reasons.

      I have found the learning process continues and I do not see an end in sight.

      I would like to invite you read an article which may you may find interesting. The link is:

      http://enoch2699399.newsvine.com/_news/2011/05/01/6565549-we-are-all-in-this-together

      I am extending to you a friend request for your consideration. Al

      • 13 votes
      Reply#4 - Sun May 15, 2011 2:10 PM EDT
      MsAubrey

      I was going to suggest that article as well.

      Al... You and Enoch are rare. Few and far between tolerant (for lack of a better word) believers. I have friends like you two. Even a priest at a Catholic church down the street from my home... It's extremely rare to find a tolerant and extremely kind Catholic Priest and parish where I live.

      • 5 votes
      #4.1 - Tue May 17, 2011 2:40 PM EDT
      Al-316

      MsAubrey, you are so sweet to say such kind words. We are all blessed. Some of us do not realize it yet. (((((MsAubrey))))). Al

      • 6 votes
      #4.2 - Tue May 17, 2011 4:41 PM EDT
      MsAubrey

      (((((Al)))))

      Back atcha!

      • 4 votes
      #4.3 - Wed May 18, 2011 10:06 AM EDT
      Reply
      Kyle-2710718

      Very nice article, Sunshine! I would have clipped it to SuperVine!, but my friend Soph beat me to it. :-)

      I used to be a religious person, but not any longer. The hypocrisy was too much to bear.

      I wrote something a while back that you might find interesting. I hope you will take the time to read it.

      Politics, Religion, Intolerance, and the Fate of Humanity

      With so many lies being told, by so many people, for so long... How do we know what the truth is anymore?

      FR sent!

      • 10 votes
      Reply#5 - Sun May 15, 2011 2:42 PM EDT
      GendoIkari

      You pointed out some of the hypocrisies amongst those whom I now call pseudo-christians very well.

      • 7 votes
      Reply#6 - Sun May 15, 2011 5:21 PM EDT
      TERESA OLEARY

      A very interesting and thought-provoking article. I had not given much thought to "organised religion" until I joined Newsvine and began to read some of the comments posted For and Against - and Viners certainly seemed to have very heated debates on the subject. I have also seen how organised religion plays a huge role in some Societies, aka. Middle East and how the political systems in those countries are very much intertwined with religious beliefs. What we witness in those countries is, I assume, what it must have been like in the Western days of the Inquisition, and how, in that period, religion was indeed used to control the masses. In the early days of Catholisicm and Christianity the Bible, seemingly, must have been used as a tool to formulate socieities and impose some rule of Law and Order - and quite punitive those laws were, just as we witness in Islam and Sharia Law today.

      Anyway, to me, it does not seem that religion per se is a problem, but the way it is organised does now seem out of synch in a Western civilisation that has morphed out of having to be controlled in a "religious organised way" - and more credibility is now given, IMO, to science. Religion also, when coupled with intolerance of others for whatever reason, seems outdated in a modern World where human riights of the individual are more paramount than having to take into consideration one's whole Society. However, under other under-politically developed societies then, it would seem, the individual is not considered - because Laws are still "religiously" imposed for the good of the whole. In the Western World we have replaced, have we not, religious "laws" with a Constitution and, in Europe, the Magna Carta? The beginning of the falling away then of the dominance of Organised Religions in its' various forms, surely.

      • 8 votes
      Reply#7 - Sun May 15, 2011 5:33 PM EDT
      cricket33

      Excellent article, thank you!

      • 7 votes
      Reply#8 - Sun May 15, 2011 8:27 PM EDT
      dakaiser11

      Very well written and well put. Thank you so much for the great read.

      But as always, the view of the liberal Christian always baffles me. The ultra conservative, full on OT Christian, I understand and fear. But I don't see how you can survive in the middle ground.

      How much of the Bible can you push into the realm of outdated cultural creations without invalidating the whole?

      How much of the Bible can you dismiss as being the work of flawed men and not God before Jesus loses his divinity?

      How much of the Bible can you put as parable and metaphor before you are no longer a Christian and mearly a theist without affiliation?

      Without the book, there are no teachings of Christ. The teachings of Christ are adherance to the old laws. The old laws decree abominations to be punished. How can you stop only part way through this progression?

      I never questioned how come it was perfectly fine to cherry pick from the Mosaic Laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy which abominations were more relevant than others for modern day people.

      How do you remain a liberal Christian without cherry picking the teachings of Christ? Instead of cherry picking the Old Testament, you would be cherry picking the New Testament. In the words of Jesus as he addressed the Pharisees about their liberal interpretation of the old laws, Matthew 15:4-7

      For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Whoever insults his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say, ‘If someone tells his father or mother, “Whatever help you would have received from me is given to God,” he does not need to honor his father.’ You have nullified the word of God on account of your tradition. Hypocrites!...

      • 2 votes
      #9 - Sun May 15, 2011 10:04 PM EDT
      sunshine girl-685508

      dakaiser, I understand this dilemma you have posed very well indeed.

      Does a text have to be scientifically accurate, historically accurate, completely free of any human agenda tampering, translation errors in order to reveal universal truths to the spiritually discerning person?

      I found the answer to be, "No,"

      In fact, the entire thing can be fiction and it would STILL result in spiritual enlightenment just as Lord of The Rings results in spiritual enlightenment when you understand its messages of love, honor, forgiveness, friendship etc.

      This might raise a hornet's nest but let me ask you, was Christ's death on the cross a SYMBOLIC GESTURE of Divine Forgiveness or was there actual LITERAL MAGICAL BLOOD flowing through his veins that by some metaphysical process unknown to man, erases human sin if you believe in it?

      • 6 votes
      #9.1 - Wed May 18, 2011 1:58 PM EDT
      Kyle-2710718

      was Christ's death on the cross a SYMBOLIC GESTURE of Divine Forgiveness or was there actual LITERAL MAGICAL BLOOD flowing through his veins that by some metaphysical process unknown to man, erases human sin if you believe in it?

      Perhaps Jesus was simply a good, charismatic man who died for a cause he believed in, and was venerated as a martyr by those who knew him, or knew of him. From there, his "legend" grew by the word of mouth of the storytellers, with an unknown number of exaggerations and embellishments added over time, until the stories "AKA scriptures" were eventually put on paper centuries later.

      Any "divinity" associated with him may only be an errant assumption, based upon the tall tales of a martyred man, made larger than life to keep audiences enthralled for generations.

      I wasn't there, so I don't know. None of us can. But this is also plausible.

      • 6 votes
      #9.2 - Wed May 18, 2011 2:42 PM EDT
      MoCowgirl-1193719

      I wasn't there

      ....and according to the information at the link below neither was anyone else who wrote the New Testament books.....and not one single historian who lived during the same time in the same place ever mentioned anything about Jesus' existence despite the multitude of followers and the "hatred" directed his way by government officials and religious officials.

      http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

      • 4 votes
      #9.3 - Wed May 18, 2011 3:00 PM EDT
      MsAubrey

      As I always say... Anyone want to play the game 'Telephone'?

      Anyone?

      • 4 votes
      #9.4 - Wed May 18, 2011 3:29 PM EDT
      Kyle-2710718

      and according to the information at the link below neither was anyone else who wrote the New Testament books.....

      Yup... I covered that too. :-)

      until the stories "AKA scriptures" were eventually put on paper centuries later.

      • 3 votes
      #9.5 - Wed May 18, 2011 3:30 PM EDT
      sunshine girl-685508

      Kyle,

      I think I share your measured approach to the subject.

      Like you, I have done a lot of research into the historical validity of the Gospels, perhaps more than many of the Christiains I know and while it was truly disappointing to learn of all the political agenda, human intrusion even suppression and persecution involved in canonizing ONLY the gospels presently in the bible and approving ONLY one version of Christian dogma (there were many sects, some that did not believe Jesus was literally God) it helped me forge a much more meaningful approach to the Jesus account.

      This is the case particularly when it comes to forgiveness.

      I am sure many of us can name quite a few Christians who are always resentful, grudge-holders and yet are always on their knees praying for forgiveness and to be able to forgive others, yet seem entirely unable to do it.

      I think this happens because people have mystified and deified Christ's gesture of forgiveness to such an extent, they have completely LOST the deeper understanding of WHY someone like him could die so peacefully, without hate in his heart, without resentment against those who killed him.

      The spiritual power, enlightenment that enables someone to be unafraid of death and never feel like a victim, even in the face of unbelievable suffering has eluded most people because forgiveness has been turned by The Church into something mystically bestowed and beyond our grasp as human beings.

      It is not. It is also not exclusively a "Christian" thing either. I wished I knew that much earlier in my life...oh well!

      • 4 votes
      #9.6 - Wed May 18, 2011 3:51 PM EDT
      Kyle-2710718

      Well said!

      • 3 votes
      #9.7 - Wed May 18, 2011 4:22 PM EDT
      Kyle-2710718

      As I always say... Anyone want to play the game 'Telephone'?

      Anyone?

      Only if I can talk dirty to you! J/K :-)

      Yeah, the telephone game, (Chinese Whispers) can get very interesting. It is amazing how fast a simple phrase can become totally unrecognizable when passed from person to person.

      • 4 votes
      #9.8 - Wed May 18, 2011 4:31 PM EDT
      dakaiser11

      This might raise a hornet's nest but let me ask you, was Christ's death on the cross a SYMBOLIC GESTURE of Divine Forgiveness or was there actual LITERAL MAGICAL BLOOD flowing through his veins that by some metaphysical process unknown to man, erases human sin if you believe in it?

      Sorry for the late reply.

      The idea that the punishment for anything I did would be to have a man tortured and hung on a cross to die really bothers me. Even "symbolically" that seems very wrong.

      But other than that, I suppose the idea of no eternal punishment for your actions on earth is a nice idea. No wonder they thank Jesus for that. Too bad the story still condemns all non-believers and such to eternal torment. If you need to take a story seriously, shouldn't you take a story without so much evil?

      • 4 votes
      #9.9 - Thu May 19, 2011 5:44 AM EDT
      js-445607

      I truly believe the evil parts and the drama of the cross/Resurrection was pretty much hype. I have also read that 20 years after the Jesus phenomenon his teachings were bastardized to the point of nearly unrecognizable. If as many people told their story their way and documented events I would think variations would abound. Perhaps there was a perceived need to control a population and putting fear in them was the solution. It is difficult for me to buy this however as it goes against the teachings of Jesus as he was more inclined to encourage individuals to hold their own counsel with God. This leads me to believe that he was trying to tell people that they'd been duped into following leaders with agendas that were not in their best interest.

      • 5 votes
      #9.10 - Thu May 19, 2011 12:41 PM EDT
      sunshine girl-685508

      Hey dakaiser11, better late than never!

      I truly get where you are coming from.

      I think the “salvation from sin” through a blood sacrifice is pretty barbaric if you take it literally and even more so if you believe that those who cannot grasp or stomach such a thing will be punished forever.

      That being said, I have begun to re-read the Gospels with a fresh perspective and although the real marrow of the story has almost been lost because of so much human bastardization and tampering, you can still find the thread of it:

      Jesus as just a man who was absolutely fed-up with the religious bureaucracy, oppression and classism that had infected Jewish society. Religion had become a business. The rich were seen as virtuous simply BECAUSE they were rich and could make big offerings to the temple, including big-time blood sacrifices of cattle, sheep to absolve their sins. This led them to have free license to do as they pleased. The poor were treated like miscreants (remind you of any modern society we know?) and judged with a different level of religious rigidity. The deeper meaning behind the laws and the CONTEXT for them had been completely lost (again remind you of any society we know?). The Jews had become racist and clannish against other people (like the Samaritans) and were still clinging to their old “empire” dreams while being fully owned by another country (again, just too similar to America today)

      The “salvation” that can be derived from Jesus willingly going to his execution is purely spiritual to me now, not literal. I no longer believe my sins have literally been washed away by Jesus’ blood. I believe instead that it is possible to become increasingly empowered with that same knowledge and power he had that makes it possible to live free from fear, forgive oneself and forgive others.

      • 4 votes
      #9.11 - Thu May 19, 2011 1:55 PM EDT
      js-445607

      The "salvation" that can be derived from Jesus willingly going to his execution is purely spiritual to me now, not literal. I no longer believe my sins have literally been washed away by Jesus' blood. I believe instead that it is possible to become increasingly empowered with that same knowledge and power he had that makes it possible to live free from fear, forgive oneself and forgive others.

      I absolutely believe this also, sunshine girl.

      • 4 votes
      #9.12 - Thu May 19, 2011 2:47 PM EDT
      MoCowgirl-1193719

      I believe instead that it is possible to become increasingly empowered with that same knowledge and power he had that makes it possible to live free from fear, forgive oneself and forgive others.

      I wholeheartedly agree.

      • 4 votes
      #9.13 - Thu May 19, 2011 9:09 PM EDT
      dakaiser11

      Sunshine,

      I don't mean to twist your words, but it read a little odd to me.

      You feel that the rich had free reign to sin without fear due to the ease of the sacrifice system. But most Christian's interpretation of the NT basically give them that same freedom without the need for a sacrifice. Wouldn't it have thus been better to further restrict the rich than to unleash the sinful nature of the poor? (Theoretically, of course. I believe in the empathy induced goodness of most men)

      I think what you were trying to say was that many people were too poor to afford the basic sacrifices required in the old laws, not that the rich had too much freedom, right?

      It says in the bible that God does not accept the sacrifices of those who abuse the system as you described. That seems to be the message of Isaiah 1:10-18.

      If you feel the Bible contains errors due to the work of men (inferred from 9.1), wouldn't it then make sense to doubt the divinity of Jesus? When a tale is retold again and again, the exploits usually grow, not shrink. Perhaps he was just a good priest with some valuable ideas that gained "divinity" through frequent retelling? Similar to the ideas of Newton and Jefferson?

      • 2 votes
      #9.14 - Fri May 20, 2011 7:31 AM EDT
      sunshine girl-685508

      But most Christian's interpretation of the NT basically give them that same freedom without the need for a sacrifice. Wouldn't it have thus been better to further restrict the rich than to unleash the sinful nature of the poor? (Theoretically, of course. I believe in the empathy induced goodness of most men)

      Yes, this makes a lot of sense. I think Jesus (literal, figurative, Divine or human) was trying to dismantle the class system completely.

      He exposed the priest-hood as being basically defunct and corrupted. He praised common sense and heart-felt, deeper meaning of the law over the legalistic and slavish surface application that had become a source of oppression.

      He compared the Pharasees to white washed graves. He posed questions like, "If one of your sheep fell into a pit during the Sabbath wouldn't you rescue it regardless of the law?"

      The Chrsitian Church as it developed fell right back into the same class system, red tape, legalism and hypocrisy. The Governments they influenced basically did the same thing Jesus was trying to fight, create two sets of moral/judicial systems, one for the rich and one for the poor, even if it was presented as the same. The rich could afford bribes, better legal representation and are assumed to have higher moral character just because they are rich.

      Look at how the French are outraged at American treatment of Mr. Khan, as if he were a common criminal. Look at the inequality between how rich people are prosectuted and how poor people are prosecuted.

      It says in the bible that God does not accept the sacrifices of those who abuse the system as you described. That seems to be the message of Isaiah 1:10-18.

      Yes, but apparently "God's representatives" do. They have no problem accepting contributions from the wealthy and corrupt.

      If you feel the Bible contains errors due to the work of men (inferred from 9.1), wouldn't it then make sense to doubt the divinity of Jesus? When a tale is retold again and again, the exploits usually grow, not shrink. Perhaps he was just a good priest with some valuable ideas that gained "divinity" through frequent retelling? Similar to the ideas of Newton and Jefferson?

      I do doubt the divinity of Jesus actually ;) However, I do not doubt just how powerful his teachings can be.

      • 4 votes
      #9.15 - Mon May 23, 2011 11:44 AM EDT
      dakaiser11

      Thanks for the informative responce. voted up!

      I do doubt the divinity of Jesus actually

      Oh. So what keeps you believing in God?

        #9.16 - Tue May 24, 2011 8:46 PM EDT
        Reply
        js-445607

        I sensed the hypocrisy very early in life luckily. As a wee pre-school child I attended Sunday School but suspect the reason my older siblings took me with them was so Mom and Dad could sleep in and have a break from us. I simply decided that if there was indeed a God he would be a nice God because his son, Jesus, was the best son ever. A little kids reasoning and logic I suppose but it has served me well my entire life.

        Great article Sunshine girl. Thank you.

        • 9 votes
        Reply#10 - Sun May 15, 2011 10:42 PM EDT
        ron c. baker sr.

        this has to be the finest article i have had the honor to read in a long time. thank you so very much, luv, for a extremely well written and heart-felt piece. i am touched and blessed to have read it.

        i would be very much honored if you would accept a friends invitation, sunshine, for you are a TRUE Christian, and i can only hope and pray to follow your example. i am a Christian, but i am also bi-sexual, and you can well imagine the self-loathing that can come from that. i am 56 now, and it has always been a struggle to hold to my faith, and while feeling that i am what my parents always warned me about, ahahah.

        i am also a, more or less, Southern Baptist, born, but i am more or less non-denominational in practise. i once attended one of the 'charismatic' churches for a time, but i didn't feel like i belong there either.

        now, because of disability, i am not attending the Baptist church i was worshiping in, mainly because of my condition. but i DO still have my faith, not in a 'church', or an organized 'religion', but in Jesus Christ as my very own personal Savior, and that gives me a peace i have not known in this life...till now.

        again, thank you for your fine piece...and PEACE !!!

        luv,

        ron

        luv,

        ron

        • 7 votes
        Reply#11 - Mon May 16, 2011 6:26 AM EDT
        Vlad's dog

        A really well written and thoughtful piece sunshine girl.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#12 - Mon May 16, 2011 6:37 AM EDT
        jedipunk

        Excellent. I especially like this:

        However the thing about being a “believer” from an early age is that you are taught that these feelings are a kind of weakness and you need to suck it up and be strong in the Lord.

        I believe this is how and why some of the more hateful rhetoric is allowed to continue.

        I was once asked about painting christians with such a broad brush about their willingness to condone certain acts (like gay bashing). I was asked if I would condemn all baseball players if a few a caught using drugs.

        I replied, no. Seldom do baseball leagues or other player come out in support of those caught abusing. While most christians will remain silent or willing avoid the issue as to prevent rocking the boat.

        • 9 votes
        Reply#13 - Mon May 16, 2011 8:26 AM EDT
        ERich-356044

        Sunshine Girl,

        I believe we have had very similiar lives.

        I went to Christian High School, Christian College... have a Bibe minor and have volunteered as a youth leader etc...

        You have written thoughts and feelings that I have never been able to put into words.

        My dad was a pastor, came out and married his partner.... and my two dads are the most wonderful, spritual men I know.

        I have come to recognize the church as a human institution. I label myself as a deeply spiritua person, but not religious. A dear friend of mine coined the term "Secular Christian" and I love it!

        I believe that there are many of us out there... those that know and understand what true love is. For lack of a better phrase "Relaxed and groovy" about our faith and others faith around us.

        Beautiful article Sunshine Girl!

        • 9 votes
        Reply#14 - Mon May 16, 2011 8:27 AM EDT
        IndependentAmerican2892850

        Sunshine Girl, you displayed a beautiful gift of articulation, and I was inspired by your article.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#15 - Mon May 16, 2011 12:08 PM EDT
        Luke Wright

        Very nice article! I enjoyed reading it very much. I have been in the church my entire life yet I have never bought into not loving gay people as much as I love others. They are simply human beings just like me. I'll let God worry about the "right" and the "wrong" of it. In my mind they are born the way they are so what choice do they have if the person they love is of the same sex? I believe that God does not make mistakes and to believe that I must love everyone, including gays, bis and trans-gendered.

        • 8 votes
        Reply#16 - Mon May 16, 2011 5:11 PM EDT
        ERich-356044

        Well said Luke!!!

        E

        • 7 votes
        #16.1 - Mon May 16, 2011 8:57 PM EDT
        PowerIsKnowledge

        Sunshine Girl, thanks for writing an article I've been trying to write for quite some time.

        I too was raised in the Church and a few of the things that put me off was how rigid they were. Everyone who was not a member of that religion was going to hell. I had to hate my homosexual and bi-sexual friends. Any question I asked that the preacher couldn't answer I was told not to question God. But what really helped me to get that other foot out the door was when one of the members arrived in town a few minutes after the service started wearing pants and was told to change or leave because females could not go before God in pants. That was enough for me and I left and never looked back.

        • 14 votes
        #16.2 - Mon May 16, 2011 9:13 PM EDT
        js-445607

        PowerIsKnowledge good for you! I believe many of us share these experiences of profound hypocrisy. Thank goodness our spirit and soul were strong enough to encourage us to listen to our hearts instead of to someone without one because of ridged dogma.

        • 12 votes
        #16.3 - Mon May 16, 2011 10:01 PM EDT
        PowerIsKnowledge

        Thanks js. I've found that I'm a better person without religion because I no longer have to judge my fellow wo/man. I prefer accepting people for who they are rather than for which God they worship.

        • 11 votes
        #16.4 - Tue May 17, 2011 7:52 AM EDT
        Reply
        redphish

        Very thoughtful and well written piece. Aside from Sunday School as a young child, my family have never been church gowers. I pretty much found my own way and wound up agnostic. I cannot say positively that there is no higher power but also cannot connect organized religions with what I've experienced in life for many of the same reasons that your wrote. I could, however, not express my thoughts on the subject nearly as eloquently as you have.

        • 8 votes
        Reply#17 - Mon May 16, 2011 11:03 PM EDT
        Autobot Prime

        Very well thought out. I enjoyed reading your article very much. There is a lot of truth in your article about how Christians can allow themselves to be led without even looking were they are going. I was fortunate enough to have found a church that encouraged you to research what was written and why, to put it in context, and to never take the pastors word that what he is teaching is correct because he is a human and we all make mistakes.

        • 7 votes
        Reply#18 - Tue May 17, 2011 5:57 AM EDT
        retiredcoastguard

        Very well thought out. I enjoyed reading your article very much. There is a lot of truth in your article about how Christians can allow themselves to be led without even looking were they are going.

        Oh and someone said this was not a Christian bashing thread . I wonder why you John lennon types don't bash the muslims?

        • 1 vote
        #18.1 - Sat May 21, 2011 7:33 AM EDT
        js-445607

        retiredcoastguard that's a stretch don't you think? Read more and you'll see this is a discussion that has more positive than negative comments. If you are simply here to accuse and assume I suppose you'd see this as a broad brush smear which it is not.

        • 4 votes
        #18.2 - Sat May 21, 2011 12:09 PM EDT
        notsojingo

        retiredcoastguard- "why fly ? why hate? I had to watch my weight for 20 yrs . I still do but not to the extremes i did when i served. I keep seeing people on here bashing overweight people for whatever reason. Since i hear most of America anyways is overweight i have too wonder."

        He has bashaphobia, js.

        • 4 votes
        #18.3 - Sun May 22, 2011 12:36 AM EDT
        js-445607

        notsojingo OMG you have made my day. You absolutely rock and I hope you keep it up!

        • 4 votes
        #18.4 - Sun May 22, 2011 2:30 AM EDT
        Reply
        YaddaYadda

        Holy mackerel! What a fan-freaking-tastic article! I can't express my admiration of it any better than everyone else who posted before me. Just know that it was awesomely wondermous!

        • 11 votes
        Reply#19 - Tue May 17, 2011 12:56 PM EDT
        ERich-356044

        Yadda,

        I just love you! You always say the perfect things!!!

        Mwah!

        E

        • 2 votes
        #19.1 - Tue May 17, 2011 11:45 PM EDT
        Reply
        US Citizen-658112

        Religion and hypocrisy seem to be welded together.

        It is indeed hard to separate the hypocrites from those who are truly trying to follow in the path as demonstrated and set out by Jesus Christ.

        I also think it is important to notice that the pomp-and-circumstance of some religions seems to be at odds with Jesus Christ's demonstrated lack of interest in same. My understanding of Jesus Christ is that he did NOT seek fame, fortune, and power, but rather pointed to love, truth, tolerance, and the following of near supernatural origin "common sense".

        Without hypocrites I do not know how some things could ever be understood. As most truth is surrounded by hypocrisy.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#20 - Tue May 17, 2011 11:39 PM EDT
        sunshine girl-685508

        Thank you all for your comments but most of all to those who also shared their experiences: redphish, PowerIsKnowledge, Erich, ron c.baker, js. and others.

        I think we should speak about our religious and spiritual experiences a lot more. Not to try to convince anyone that our partiuclar way is more correct or anything but just to share and find common ground and perhaps maybe a deeper understanding of tha nature of faith, truth, love, enlightenment and each-other.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#21 - Wed May 18, 2011 1:41 PM EDT
        js-445607

        Thank you for this wonderful article where we were able to discuss this subject sunshine girl. In my world everyone is precious and important to the whole of humanity. Understanding others is a gift we should all share and the more we open ourselves the easier this understanding becomes.

        • 3 votes
        #21.1 - Wed May 18, 2011 1:53 PM EDT
        Reply
        KCtech05

        I have to say...

        I loved your article. I just got done reading it for the second time. You are very talented. You were able to pull my (and other peoples' it seems ;) ) thoughts and feelings from my head! Thank you very very much for posting.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#22 - Wed May 18, 2011 3:25 PM EDT
        notsojingo

        Thank you for the wonderfully inspirational seed, sunshine girl!

        I have also been somewhat 'resurrected' in spirit to see and read the overwhelmingly intelligent and thoughtful comments on this Vine, and so appreciate the warm and fuzzy feeling I have received from knowing I am nowhere near alone in this world in my questioning of Organized Religion while retaining a Faith within my Heart that a Higher Power does exist, even if we can only use the names taught us in our youth to Thank Him/Her by.

        Fantastic group of commenters here, also appreciated greatly. Lately, I have become worn down with the negativity so often found while trying to discuss issues reasonably.

        Blessings to All!

        Peace

        • 5 votes
        Reply#23 - Wed May 18, 2011 10:59 PM EDT
        js-445607

        notsojingo sunshine girl certainly gave many of us a well deserved lift that's for sure. I believe hearing the stories of others and not losing sight of the main message no matter how far one strays from organized religion is a blessing. Loving one another is the foundation for a beautiful life and a lot of love has been spread right hear on Newsvine.

        • 5 votes
        #23.1 - Thu May 19, 2011 12:01 AM EDT
        notsojingo

        It is redeeming!!

        Peace

        • 2 votes
        #23.2 - Thu May 19, 2011 12:07 AM EDT
        Reply
        OneNativeSon

        RE - another LIE.

        End of the world today.

        Note to self: mow lawn, clean bathroom and kitchen (darn fairness! Why didn't mamma raise me up to be a chauvinist?)

        I really thought there would be less mundane normal stuff to do!

        • 5 votes
        Reply#24 - Sat May 21, 2011 3:47 PM EDT
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